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July 31, 2004

Comments

Wolverine

To: AdrianSpidle

Is this your new Commander -in - Chief? WHAT WILL YOU DO..??
 
Learn about John Kerry  http://www.swiftvets.com

 
This is what John Kerry hides.
 
ALL ABOUT JOHN KERRY

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Documents
 
All Kerry

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?s=kerry&ok=Search&q=quick&m=any&o=time&SX=4109b697f662834ea2c281bcab3e358eab0d4271
 
Click here to watch the documentary http://www.demsextrememakeover.com

posted by Wolverine

BillyCrockett


Another post here showing a Kerry history lesson. Really good.

http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/vietnam.htm

posted by BillyCrockett

Sky-Ho

My pilot training instructor had just finished training GWB.

He said, the only reason GWB passed was because of his daddy, and went on to tell stories of how many times the idiot tried to kill him. Whenever GWB soloed, they called out the crash trucks to the runway, beforehand.

Twice, I was told by members of his Texas Guard unit that he was only allowed to fly dual (two pilots), for public consumption, because he was the son of a high placed official. In reality, it was because he was just bad. and this, in one of the easiest fighters the Guard had to fly.

Believe me, when the libruls claim he checked that he would not serve overseas (Vietnam); the unit, much less the Air Force; would never endanger American armed forces by sending him there.

As he was so placid (hung-over?), no-one could accurately assess whether he had leadership skills or not. To see him indecisive would have been an improvement. Even a bad decision would have been better than none.

I am not surprised, after being told of the second tower hit on Sept 11, 2001, he spent over seven minutes essentially doing the same thing he always did, nothing, while Americans were burning and jumping to their deaths.

No change in his character over all these years, even now, with "God" whispering in his head.

yhwhsman

Thanks, you done good!

posted by yhwhsman

zzz

You mention VietnamVeteransAgainstJohnKerry.com

Isn't that the group that John McCain described thus:

"I strongly caution reporters who may be contacted by or are interested in Mr. Ted Sampley and the various organizations he claims to represent, and his opinions on the subject of Senator Kerry, or any subject for that matter, to investigate thoroughly Mr. Sampley's background and history of spreading outrageous slander and other disreputable behavior before inadvertently lending him or his allegations any credibility.

"I am well familiar with Mr. Sampley, and I know him to be one of the most despicable people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. I consider him a fraud who preys on the hopes of family members of missing servicemen for his own profit. He is dishonorable, an enemy of the truth, and despite his claims, he does not speak for or represent the views of all but a few veterans. The many veterans I know would think it a disgrace to be considered a comrade or supporter of Ted Sampley."

Based on what little that I've seen of your site, I'd have to agree with the part about slander and enemy of the truth.

Why do you harbor such irrational hatred? Many Americans disagreed about the Vietnam war. John Kerry earned the right to speak his mind about his opposition to the war, and he spoke his mind clearly and openly. Thirty years have passed and people who were on opposite sides of the issue are now neighbors and friends.
Yet you call him a traitor for that? You haven't explained WHY you have these hatreds, you've only repeated them. Explain yourself because frankly your positions seem paranoid and way out in the fringe. And that's a view coming from a moderate Republican like John McCain.

longtermmemmory

Why can't there be a commercial made of viet nam POW's testifying that Kerry's words and testimony images were used by the enemy to try and break the prisoners.

Why can't there be a commercial demonstrating how pathetic the injury was for his self nominated medals?

posted by longtermmemmory

N. Theknow

Hang around and you will see why his record deserves bashing. Especially from people who were there.

You know, the ones whom he claims were war criminals.

Also, if someone wants to run on military records, they should release those records.

What has he got to hide?

posted by N. Theknow

q_an_a

to:Sky-Ho

that is a joke- the pilot training that President Bush completed was longer than Kerry's service.

How many people in the world can fly a jet? not many and Not John Kerry. Command of a boat is not flying/driving it and the reason you don't know the difference is that you a are no vet.

posted by q_an_a

Sky-Ho

"that is a joke- the pilot training that President Bush completed was longer than Kerry's service."

Are you considering Kerry's service as simply the time he was in swift boats, or, are you forgetting to add in all the time spent training - and - completing his duty obligation?

As an exercise, let us add up the total duty days that Bush was supposed to complete and compare that with four and a half months of active duty that Kerry completed, with honor.

Um, looks like a real and quantifiable difference.


"How many people in the world can fly a jet?"

Let me see. At last count Airline Pilot Association has over 40,000 active pilots who fly jets. That is not counting many corporate pilots, airline pilots not of ALPA (American Airline pilots, among others) and the hundreds of thousands of military and ex-military pilots who, not only did not become career pilots but actually completed their duties and obligations.

"Not John Kerry."

How do you know? Do you know personally whether Kerry can or cannot fly a "jet"? Or is this some sort of partisan wishful thinking, yet again. and besides, who cares? That is comparing apples and oranges.

"Command of a boat is not flying/driving it..."

Actually, I can think of many times where commanding a swift boat could be more complex than flying an aircraft, especially with a green or hungover crew.

".... and the reason you don't know the difference is that you a are no vet."

Sigh, I knew that damn Vietnam ribbon wasn't worth the cloth it was made of after all. Suppose I can just toss my ribbons and medals over the Whitehouse front lawn fence.

Oh darn, someone already did that..........

willyb

Sky-Ho,

Frankly the time that John Kerry and George Bush spent in the military over 30 years ago is irrelevant. While it is admirable that they both served and got honorable discharges, this service prepared neither to be Commander-in-Chief.

John Kerry came home from Vietnam and testified that his fellow sailors/soldiers were committing atrocities in large numbers. Not that he witnessed these atrocities mind you (except for perhaps his own), but that he had accepted the testimony of some questionable "soldiers" at a Jane Fonda sponsored media event. If that wasn't bad enough, he threw his ribbons/medals over a barricade at the White House in protest of the war. Through these actions, and others, he gave aid and support to the enemy of America's military. And through these actions, John Kerry gave up his right to be called a "war hero."

Tim H

So, willyb, you believe Kerry did have a right to be called a war hero, and he later gave up that right by siding with the majority of Americans and opposing the disastrous Vietnam war? A valid opinion, though I disagree with it.

FWIW, I don't think Kerry should be trading on his background in Vietnam. He's got too much else over Bush to need to. Bush is an economy-wrecking extremist, an incompetent partisan and an egotistical, election-stealing nut. That his daddy got him out of military service is neither here nor there, and that Kerry served his country is just as irelevant: Kerry should run on the policies today, and he'll win a landslide.

willyb

Tim H,

"So, willyb, you believe Kerry did have a right to be called a war hero, and he later gave up that right by siding with the majority of Americans and opposing the disastrous Vietnam war?"

The majority of Americans? If his service was so wrong, why does he exploit it for political purpose? How can any actions in connection with the commission of atrocities be heroic?

As far as running on his policies, Kerry runs from his record. Even the lefties are disappointed in him, or haven't you heard.

will

"I am saddened that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign." Sen. Kerry in 1992

At the convention after the video and his acceptance speech most of which were about suurpriiiise, suurpriiiise,
suurpriiiise, Vietnam. He's presented as a war hero but claimed they were all war criminals. The man has flip flops sized for big foot. Wait I forgot, he did talk about values, you know the kind, good ol nuanced values.

Sky-Ho

willyb,

"Frankly the time that John Kerry and George Bush spent in the military over 30 years ago is irrelevant."

It became relevant when "fly-boy" wore a flight suit, with all the implications and stereotyping that goes along with it. His PR team opened that particular can of worms. If you wish to make references to former military service, then let us see the entire record, not just the items you wish us to see.

"While it is admirable that they both served and got honorable discharges, this service prepared neither to be Commander-in-Chief."

I disagree with two points.

1. To a certain degree, leadership is trainable. By that I mean that basic attributes of leadership can be shaped in order to be more effective. I don't know that leadership can be trained if there is little or nothing there to begin with.

I would think that is why we have service academies and officer training schools, to cull out those with leadership potential and then to shape and polish what the candidates have.

2. Based on how our society treats their citizens when it comes to wrong-doing before vs after age eighteen, I would tend to think that basic behavioral characteristics are in place by the early twenties. If, even partly true, then both candidate's military service provides a window into behavior (I am talking about basic behavior; lying, cheating, stealing and tolerating others who do, as well as the capacity to lead, which includes the ability to make mistakes and change, characterized by the ignorant as "flip-flop" ) that will exhibit itself throughout their lives.

When set side-by-side, I see two different people. One, willfully lazy, arrogant and completely absorbed in himself. The other, willing to go out and make a difference.

"John Kerry came home from Vietnam and testified that his fellow sailors/soldiers were committing atrocities in large numbers."

Quite a few of us wanted to get it out and make a change, but either were fearful of consequences, were not as polished as others or simply lacked the resources to undertake such a task. Nearly all of us saw a tremendous wrong in Vietnam. He and a few others, frustrated by attempts through "normal channels", were brave enough to try to right the wrong by going public.

"Not that he witnessed these atrocities mind you (except for perhaps his own), but that he had accepted the testimony of some questionable "soldiers" at a Jane Fonda sponsored media event."

There is no doubt there were atrocities. I witnessed it. Bob Kerrey witnessed it. The press recorded it. I have no doubt the majority of us had no thought to commit anything like that, John Kerry included. But, like Abu Ghraib, it happened. Was he blaming those on the ground? After reading his testimony I say no. He was blaming the higher ups for allowing conditions to exist for that to happen. Had the Pentagon heeded his (and others) words then, we might not have had an Abu Ghraib.

"If that wasn't bad enough, he threw his ribbons/medals over a barricade at the White House in protest of the war.

As I tried to point out to "q_an_a", if people are going to go around excluding vets from being vets, then I might as well, also. What do the medal mean, if not honor?

Sir, the American soldiers in Vietnam, as is the American soldiers in Iraq, for the most part, are honorable and brave. Sadly, both wars were ill-conceived as well as poorly managed.

Is it possible to criticize the makers and top "leadership" of a military action yet honor those sent in the name of America to carry out their orders? I say yes. This, I believe, is the problem with the "Swiffers against Kerry". They just cannot figure out the difference.

"Through these actions, and others, he gave aid and support to the enemy of America's military."

If your country is wrong, how do you reconcile your statement? What if your country is doing no better than Saddam invading Kuwait, as we did in Iraq? What if the enemy of your military were the corrupt and murderous civilian leadership you were forced to consort with (in Vietnam).

"And through these actions, John Kerry gave up his right to be called a "war hero.""

By speaking out, John Kerry helped save untold thousands of American lives from further futile and bloody efforts to "Americanize" Vietnam. Imagine how many Americans would have been lost had we stayed another five or ten years.

At least, in that respect, sir, he is a war hero.

darkstar127

"Posted by: yhwhsman | July 31, 2004 12:33 PM
Yet you call him a traitor for that? You haven't explained WHY you have these hatreds, you've only repeated them. Explain yourself because frankly your positions seem paranoid and way out in the fringe. And that's a view coming from a moderate Republican like John McCain."

The same John McCain who spent 6 years as a Vietnam War POW and came back to serve in Congress. He has stated in the past that Kerry's (and Jane Fonda's) actions and words made life HARDER for those who were P.O.W.'s in Vietnam. North Vietnamese used Kerry's words to demoralize our boys who were behind enemy lines. John Kerry may have spoken his mind, but the words he used were Communist Propaganda. Funny how even today, Communists and Socialists are lining up behind his campaign.

~me

Skippy

It's also time for Bush to fess up about his National Guard duty and the way he managed to weazle his way out of Vietnam.

willyb

“When set side-by-side, I see two different people. One, willfully lazy, arrogant and completely absorbed in himself. The other, willing to go out and make a difference.”

How would you know what kind of people these are? Your ad hominem attacks on Bush could just as easily be applied to Kerry. And are you seriously going to try to characterize John Kerry’s voting for the Iraq resolution and then voting against funding that resolution as “the ability to make mistakes and change”? What a joke.

“He was blaming the higher ups for allowing conditions to exist for that to happen. Had the Pentagon heeded his (and others) words then, we might not have had an Abu Ghraib.”

The ole Flip Wilson defense, huh? The devil made me do it. These kinds of excuses don’t work at court martials. If you witnesses an atrocity, and you don’t report it, then you are an accomplice to that atrocity. Plain and simple. And the soldiers at Abu Garaib that were doing weird things with prisoners are in the same boat. Soldiers are only required to follow lawful orders. I don’t think you are going to find that committing atrocities fall in that category.

“As I tried to point out to "q_an_a", if people are going to go around excluding vets from being vets, then I might as well, also. What do the medal mean, if not honor?”

If medals are awarded for honor, what does throwing them away mean?

All the rest of your lines about Vietnm being a bad war, and John Kerry saving lives, are just a bunch of bullshit. The problems in Vietnam were mostly caused a lack of leadership at the highest levels. You might recall that Democrats were the party in charge at the time this conflict was elevated to the level of a war.

Living through Vietnam one time was bad enough. I have no intention of fighting that war over again. But I will say this…I think Kerry cost lives by his protest actions.

willyb

Skippy,

Bush has disclosed all of his military records. Why won't Kerry disclose his?

I'm more concerned with what people have done lately. What has John Kerry done lately?

Sky-Ho

"How would you know what kind of people these are? Your ad hominem attacks on Bush could just as easily be applied to Kerry."

It is pretty hard to launch an ad hominem attack against Kerry when his entire life seems to be an open book. On the other hand, what information that is available about Bush is, disreputable, at best.

Check out issues of the Yale newspaper when Bush was there. Even his guard commander in Alabama, the few times he saw Bush, commented about how Bush would only talk about his party exploits and seemed to be not very interested in the unit.

While CEO, Bush has run several corporations into the ground. While Governor, his precursor to his highly touted "Leave no child behind", has, in fact, in Texas, resulted in less graduations (percentage-wise) than ever before. His execution record is only rivaled by Saddam.

The fact that he could have all records released (Texas Air Guard records included) but continually refuses to do so would imply that for some reason he has something to hide.

Kerry has disclosed all of his military records. Can you list any he has not?

"If medals are awarded for honor, what does throwing them away mean?"

I believe that, twice, Kerry stated that the medals he tossed belonged to veterans who could not get to the Whitehouse.

I said that if the medals were not worth anything to anyone else, what good are they? If you are the kind of person who sits around "admiring" your medals, then, good for you. I don't need medals to substitute for memories.

"But I will say this…I think Kerry cost lives by his protest actions."

He may have cost a few American lives. You cannot prove it and logic suggests that, short-term, he might have put a few Americans at risk, but long term, he saved lives that would have been lost in a lose-lose situation. Agree or not with his decision, but, to cut to the chase, he made a very presidential decision, something Bush has never been accused of, even as president.

You don't like the idea that, in the long run, Kerry likely saved lives because accepting that as a possibility would demand you rethink and, assuming you are rational, recast your mind-set.

Pulease. this web site was set up to fish for information that would only serve the pre-conceived notion that Kerry is a bad person, to be presumably used to benefit Bush.

That is a very adolescent and non-military manner of doing business. I always thought intelligent, military (and ex-military) personnel as being above that but, maybe the concept of honor changes.

willyb

Sky-Ho,

FYI, an ad hominem attack appeals to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect and is marked by an attack on an opponent's character, for example, “One, willfully lazy, arrogant and completely absorbed in himself.”

“Kerry has disclosed all of his military records. Can you list any he has not?”

I have heard that he has not released all of his medical records or all of his FITREPs. The medical records would cast some light on the severity of the wounds behind his purple hearts. The missing FITREPs would complete the picture of his performance while in the Navy. Frankly, I wish people would let this go. But there are apparently some sailors out there that served with John Kerry and have a pretty low opinion of his fitness to be commander-in-chief.

Look, it’s Kerry that making a big deal of his military service, not Bush. Bush doesn’t have to go back 30 plus years to establish some actions in his past that would give him the experience to be CIC…he has actual experience. Kerry is the one saying that earning medals and ribbons somehow qualifies him to be CIC. Unless terrorists decide to attack us via the Potomac, I don’t see where piloting a swift boat for 4 months transfers to the job of CIC.

“I believe that, twice, Kerry stated that the medals he tossed belonged to veterans who could not get to the Whitehouse.”

I heard Kerry said he threw someone else’s medals/ribbons as well, but what impression did he give when he threw someone else’s medals'ribbons? He gave the impression he was throwing his own. What does that say about the honor behind his medals/ribbons?

I think if you look back to my first post here you will see that I don't think what people did 30 years ago is all that relevant, and may not be a predictor of what they would do today. I think that is especially true for Bush, and given Kerry’s track record in the Senate, may be true for him as well. Why doesn’t John Kerry talk about what he has accomplished over the last 19 plus years he has been in the Senate to make our Defense stronger?

“Agree or not with his decision, but, to cut to the chase, he made a very presidential decision, something Bush has never been accused of, even as president.”

I don’t know you, but based on this comment I would have to assume that you have never been in command. If I’m wrong, then you have my apology. But saying that Bush has never made a presidential decision is just completely wrong. Presidents don’t make many decisions that are bigger than putting American troops in harm’s way in defense of this country. The easy decision would have been to defer to the U.N. And based on comments he has made in the past, that’s what Kerry would have done.

Talk about arrogant! While Kerry may have had an impact on ending the war in Vietnam, he certainly didn’t have the biggest impact. That credit/discredit goes to Nixon, in my opinion. So to give Kerry credit for saving American lives by ending the war is a huge stretch. But if you insist on doing that, please give him the discredit for the thousands of South Vietnamese that were slaughtered at the hands of the North Vietnamese after America pulled its troops out of Vietnam.

StinKerr

"Twice, I was told by members of his Texas Guard unit that he was only allowed to fly dual (two pilots)..."

I thought a "sky_ho" would know that the F102 was a single seat aircraft. Apparently not.

Chris

Wow Sky_Ho, where do you get your information? I mean, your rant about Bush not releasing all of his records and Kerry having released his is astounding. Its like saying the sun didn't rise yesterday and gravity doesn't exist. Bush signed form 180 (I believe thats the number) releasing all of his military records on March 18th of 2004 I believe. Kerry, on the other hand, has only released a handful of records on his website and refuses to sign form 180.

Alot of understanding Kerry's record requires experience in the military. Veterans who are familiar with FITREPS will tell you that Kerry's are not consistent with an excellent leader as he claims to be. They will also enlighten you on the awarding of medals. Few enlisted men petition to receive a purple heart. To some, it serves as a reminder of mistakes: a time when you let your guard down and caught enemy fire. This is not to say that few receive purple hearts. If you lose a leg to a mortar round, you are going to be given a purple heart, you don't need to petition for it. Many men who received light-to-moderate wounds would simply go get it stitched up and head back to their unit where they were needed.
Before sounding off on the subject, you would really do a great service to comprehensively review what you are talking about and attempt to educate yourself. When you spout off as you have done, your message is often lost in the ignorance that surrounds it. I could easily go on attacking your post and your lack of cohesive understanding, but I think it would be most beneficial if you just heeded my advice

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